Morgan Housel is a partner at the Collaborative Fund and serves on the board of directors at Markel Corporation. He is also a former columnist at The Motley Fool and The Wall Street Journal and author of the award-winning book The Psychology of Money. Tim Ferris and Morgan discuss how understanding investing and risk tolerance is more of a phycological challenge than a purely financial one.

Morgan Housel interview

Risk is just the odds that something will prevent you from achieving your goals. Everyone has very different goals and aspirations and time horizons, so everyone thinks about risk differently. If your goals lie 50 years in the future, you probably wouldn't care what will happen in the next three years. But if you're 90 years retired widow on a fixed income, you'd have a very different definition of risk.  When people argue with each other on risk, it's really people with different risk tolerances and different time horizons talking over each other.

How to approach risk

Most people want independence and autonomy. Having the money that you don’t have to spend becomes the most valuable thing in the world when it lets you gain control of your time. But freedom and autonomy carry a lot of responsibility with them.

Instil the value of money and the ability to control how it affects your life


Money isn’t a means to wealth, it’s a means to autonomy and independence.

“Financial Advice for My New Son”“You might think you want an expensive car, a fancy watch, and a huge house. But I’m telling you, you don’t. What you want is respect and admiration from other people, and you think having expensive stuff will bring it. It almost never does — especially from the people you want to respect and admire you.” “When you see someone driving a nice car, you probably don’t think, ‘Wow, that person is cool.’ Instead, you think, ‘Wow, if I had that car people would think I’m cool.’ Do you see the irony? No one cares about the guy in the car."

Cope’s rule states that organisms get bigger over time. But there are huge downsides to being big. There’s always a sweet spot in evolution. When something becomes too big to manage, it can cause you to fail.

 The size is the strategy

Buffett has a great quote on wealth where he says he wants to leave his kids enough money that they can do anything, but not so much money that they could do nothing. Give children a safety net, but not fuel. Parents shouldn't give their children money just to make their life better. Children need to know that they have to make it on their own.

Ensure your children grow up to be financially smart

There are many things in finance that look smart and sound smart, and the numbers add up, but it's completely opposed to how the real world works. Then there are many things that investors do that are not rational but is perfectly reasonable and align with how people's heads work.  For example, people own stocks that are closest to where they live. People who live in America only own US stocks, and those in Germany only own German stocks. It's not rational, but it's very reasonable. It's easier to invest your life savings in companies you're most familiar with.

Rational vs reasonable

The way to become a great investor is to maximize the amount of dollars you accumulate over the course of your life. Most of the time, it is not earning the highest returns. For example:<ul><li>Warren Buffett is the wealthiest investor of all time.</li><li>Jim Simons the greatest investor of all time in terms of long term average annual returns.</li></ul>Warren Buffett’s long term average annual returns are about 21% per year. Jim Simons’ are like 66 % per year. Yet, Warren Buffett is wealthier because has been investing for much longer.

How to become a great investor

Morgan Housel — The Psychology of Money, Picking the Right Game, and the $6 Million Janitor | Brought to you by Allform premium, modular furniture; Athletic Greens all-in-one nutritional supplement; and Tonal smart home gym. More on all three below.Morgan Housel (@morganhousel) is a partner at the Collaborative Fund and a former columnist at The Motley Fool and The Wall Street Journal. He serves on the board of directors at Markel Corporation. He is a two-time winner of the Best in Business Award from the Society of American Business Editors and Writers, winner of the New York Times Sidney Award, and a two-time finalist for the Gerald Loeb Award for Distinguished Business and Financial Journalism.His book The Psychology of Money has sold more than one million copies and has been translated into more than 30 languages.Please enjoy!This episode is brought to you by Allform! If you’ve been listening to the podcast for a while, you’ve probably heard me talk about Helix Sleep mattresses, which I’ve been using since 2017. They also launched a company called Allform that makes premium, customizable sofas and chairs shipped right to your door—at a fraction of the cost of traditional stores. You can pick your fabric (and they’re all spill, stain, and scratch resistant), the sofa color, the color of the legs, and the sofa size and shape to make sure it’s perfect for you and your home.Allform arrives in just 3–7 days, and you can assemble it yourself in a few minutes—no tools needed. To find your perfect sofa and receive 20% off all orders, check out Allform.com/Tim.*This episode is also brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time, “If you could use only one supplement, what would it be?” My answer is usually AG1 by Athletic Greens, my all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body in 2010 and did not get paid to do so. I do my best with nutrient-dense meals, of course, but AG further covers my bases with vitamins, minerals, and whole-food-sourced micronutrients that support gut health and the immune system. Right now, Athletic Greens is offering you their Vitamin D Liquid Formula free with your first subscription purchase—a vital nutrient for a strong immune system and strong bones. Visit AthleticGreens.com/Tim to claim this special offer today and receive the free Vitamin D Liquid Formula (and five free travel packs) with your first subscription purchase! That’s up to a one-year supply of Vitamin D as added value when you try their delicious and comprehensive all-in-one daily greens product.*This episode is also brought to you by Tonal! Tonal is the world’s most intelligent home gym and personal trainer. It is precision engineered and designed to be the most advanced strength studio on the market today. Tonal uses breakthrough technology—like adaptive digital weights and AI learning—together with the best experts in resistance training so you get stronger, faster. Every program is personalized to your body using AI, and smart features check your form in real time, just like a personal trainer.Try Tonal, the world’s smartest home gym, for 30 days in your home, and if you don’t love it, you can return it for a full refund. Visit Tonal.com for $100 off their smart accessories when you use promo code TIM100 at checkout.*For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast.Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday.For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books.Follow Tim:Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferrissFacebook: facebook.com/timferriss YouTube: youtube.com/timferrissPast guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Margaret Atwood, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, Balaji Srinivasan, Sarah Silverman, Dr. Andrew Huberman, Dr. Michio Kaku, and many more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Money & Investments

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Motivation & Inspiration

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Brought to you by Athletic Greens all-in-one nutritional supplement, Allform premium, modular furniture, and Tonal smart home gym. Morgan Housel (@morganhousel) is a partner at the Collaborative Fund and a former columnist at The Motley Fool and The Wall Street Journal. He serves on the board of directors at Markel Corporation. He is a two-time winner of the Best in Business Award from the Society of American Business Editors and Writers, winner of the New York Times Sidney Award, and a two-time finalist for the Gerald Loeb Award for Distinguished Business and Financial Journalism.His book The Psychology of Money has sold more than one million copies and has been translated into more than 30 languages.Please enjoy!This episode is brought to you by Allform! If you’ve been listening to the podcast for a while, you’ve probably heard me talk about Helix Sleep mattresses, which I’ve been using since 2017. They also launched a company called Allform that makes premium, customizable sofas and chairs shipped right to your door—at a fraction of the cost of traditional stores. You can pick your fabric (and they’re all spill, stain, and scratch resistant), the sofa color, the color of the legs, and the sofa size and shape to make sure it’s perfect for you and your home.Allform arrives in just 3–7 days, and you can assemble it yourself in a few minutes—no tools needed. To find your perfect sofa and receive 20% off all orders, check out Allform.com/Tim.*This episode is also brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time, “If you could use only one supplement, what would it be?” My answer is usually AG1 by Athletic Greens, my all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body in 2010 and did not get paid to do so. I do my best with nutrient-dense meals, of course, but AG further covers my bases with vitamins, minerals, and whole-food-sourced micronutrients that support gut health and the immune system. Right now, Athletic Greens is offering you their Vitamin D Liquid Formula free with your first subscription purchase—a vital nutrient for a strong immune system and strong bones. Visit AthleticGreens.com/Tim to claim this special offer today and receive the free Vitamin D Liquid Formula (and five free travel packs) with your first subscription purchase! That’s up to a one-year supply of Vitamin D as added value when you try their delicious and comprehensive all-in-one daily greens product.*This episode is also brought to you by Tonal! Tonal is the world’s most intelligent home gym and personal trainer. It is precision engineered and designed to be the most advanced strength studio on the market today. Tonal uses breakthrough technology—like adaptive digital weights and AI learning—together with the best experts in resistance training so you get stronger, faster. Every program is personalized to your body using AI, and smart features check your form in real time, just like a personal trainer.Try Tonal, the world’s smartest home gym, for 30 days in your home, and if you don’t love it, you can return it for a full refund. Visit Tonal.com for $100 off their smart accessories when you use promo code TIM100 at checkout.*Warren Buffett vs. Jim Simons. [06:43]What do people get wrong about the partnership between Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger? [13:45]The size is the strategy. [16:59]Six years after writing his “Financial Advice for My New Son” article for The Motley Fool, are there any points Morgan would add or amend? [20:27]While there’s no way of knowing what kind of adults our kids will grow up to be, how might we instill in them the value of money and the ability to control how it affects their lives? [23:43]What unorthodox career decision did Morgan’s father make in his 30s, and how did the family’s life change as a result? How did earlier lessons of frugality give Morgan’s parents more options later on than their more steadily affluent peers? [28:28]How Morgan’s career path meandered from Denny’s greeter to investment banker to reluctant writer. [34:18]After finally hitting his stride as a writer at The Motley Fool, what compelled Morgan to join the Collaborative Fund team? [42:15]What’s a Markel and how did Morgan get involved with it? What was it hoped he could bring to the table there? [49:07]How does Morgan approach risk? [56:32]What “fin tweet” game is Morgan playing, and what are the rules? Who are the top players in this space, and what makes them worth your attention no matter the medium? [58:59]Investors Morgan respects — even if he wouldn’t try to emulate them. [1:03:33]Don’t beat yourself up too badly if you’ve ever been gamed by the market. Even Warren Buffett still makes mistakes. But would his younger version have made the same decisions he makes today? What made the early days of the pandemic such an uncertain time for even the most seasoned investors — Buffett and Housel alike? [1:09:37]Sometimes it’s the counterintuitive bets that elevate an investor into deity or demigodhood in the pantheon of the money-minded — whether it’s Benjamin Graham, Walt Disney, or Michael Moritz. [1:19:11]Notes on leverage and the “buy, borrow, die” approach to investing, and making sense of conflicting, diametrically opposed advice from seemingly intelligent, rational parties with differing opinions. [1:28:37]Sometimes peace of mind matters more than profit. [1:33:44]Is it better to be an antediluvian penny pincher who dies rich, or a high-roller who casts fistfuls of dollars into the sea only to pass away penniless? Maybe the middle ground is healthier than either extreme. [1:36:01]How does Morgan recommend someone of means ensure their children don’t grow up to be horrible, entitled, and generally useless to society? [1:40:13]Biographies and memoirs Morgan recommends (and what they can teach us about current events). [1:48:19]How can you increase the likelihood that you will not respond in moments of panic by doing what cripples you financially? Morgan weighs in. [1:52:26]In Morgan’s experience, how does someone who comes into money effectively allow themselves to enjoy it without succumbing to the all-too-common temptation to sink it all under a mountan of status symbols nobody really cares about? For his own part, what does his financial comfort allow him to enjoy, and how does he scratch the itch when he’s pestered by such temptations? [1:57:27]Preparing for financially bumpy long hauls, and “understanding the difference between a fee and a fine.” [2:07:15]A handful of journalists and writers Morgan would choose as trusted informants in a world without Twitter or in-depth news sources. [2:10:37]Morgan’s hall of fame for books about investing and finance, and how Dan Gardner’s book The Science of Fear has made him think about fear. [2:17:02]Morgan’s advice for helping someone (like me) regain a regular cadence of writing if COVID or other life interruptions have derailed such efforts, and a glimpse into what his own writing process looks like. [2:19:18]Tolerance for petty annoyance as a valuable life skill. [2:25:48]How did training as a competitive ski racer prepare Morgan for USC and, eventually, a world-class writer for The Motley Fool? [2:30:53]What does Morgan think is true, but is actually just good marketing? [2:39:17]What looks unsustainable, but is actually a new trend we haven’t accepted yet? [2:40:57]What has been true for decades that will stop working, but will drag along stubborn adherence because it has such a long track record of success? [2:43:50]Which of our current views would change if our incentives were different? [2:45:46]What are we ignoring today that will seem shockingly obvious in a year? [2:48:11]Money is not spreadsheets. It’s dopamine and cortisol. [2:49:06]Thoughts on near-future innovations both frightening and fascinating. [2:50:10]Websites Morgan thinks are worth your while. [2:55:23]Stories or points in The Psychology of Money Morgan wishes people paid more attention to. [2:57:39]Parting thoughts. [2:59:02]*For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast.For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors.Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday.For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books.Follow Tim:Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferrissFacebook: facebook.com/timferriss YouTube: youtube.com/timferrissPast guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Margaret Atwood, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, Balaji Srinivasan, Sarah Silverman, Dr. Andrew Huberman, Dr. Michio Kaku, and many more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Tim Ferriss is a self-experimenter and bestselling author, best known for The 4-Hour Workweek, which has been translated into 40+ languages.  Newsweek calls him "the world's best human guinea pig," and The New York Times calls him "a cross between Jack Welch and a Buddhist monk."  In this show, he deconstructs world-class performers from eclectic areas (investing, chess, pro sports, etc.), digging deep to find the tools, tactics, and tricks that listeners can use.

Morgan Housel interview

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