Learning happens by recognizing you made a mistake, and aiming to correct it on your next attempt. Yet because most artists think “practice makes perfect” they complete one drawing and move to the next. You need to be able to compare your drawing to something, or you won’t be able to recognize where it can improve.

Build a feedback loop

Yes, it’s fun to make final images. But they aren’t very good for learning, because anything could be wrong: proportions, gesture, shading, perspective, simplification, anatomy, color - or something else! That’s like listening to 5 pieces of music simultaneously. There’s just too much conflicting information. You need to remove as many elements as possible in order to see what’s truly wrong.

Focus on one thing at a time

A photograph will tell you exactly how it is, but not what is important. Art is most interesting when the artist does try to tell you what is important. Like <a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/CB3edKEgH7I/">simplifying detail </a>, <a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/CHqQjK3DZAJ/">exaggerating form </a>or <a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/CEzm5D3BRtE/">distorting selected elements </a>.

Interpretation drives interest

<figure><img alt="Composite - Early Paint.png" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1608339000173-ISAI7UZZ57561Q6KFF7B/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kAUHmmw8mv68CUsooXUADiF7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0qCs2cmwdrfT342uq--LwR4bZnmr2xVFn6y4mHDaARLy2oAM1vN9GI_aGo9YmSrCvw/Composite+-+Early+Paint.png?format=2500w"></figure>I had an epiphany when I realized I could create my own feedback loop with reference. Sketch once, overlay directly with reference, note the discrepancies then repeat. Like this:I practiced this over many weeks, and gradually the core mistakes started to vanish:<figure><img alt="Composite - Sketches.jpg" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1608340029115-0VYR95U2KM1EDN9EMEDH/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kBJtFj50fCbyPgUDBuFdb2N7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0pTKqSDRwmMK43IUI3HojJXIaoQIDcSI4Aw6voRgHa6N3x_GeOZXJNJhwn5q51nTfQ/Composite+-+Sketches.jpg?format=2500w"><figcaption dir="auto">View fullsize</figcaption></figure>A friend suggested I draw family instead. So I did a few weeks of that:<figure><img alt="Composite - Proportions.jpg" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1608340113611-DJXC7RPOXXH97KYNWVGM/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kD7pRMN4rB70B7BqW9WB-Gx7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0ktJPZ5nzlpAQ9l-HYKRq6V6R_VFNrLzqiKl4Y53athzJa2dvI2bRUj428rt1YKVmQ/Composite+-+Proportions.jpg?format=2500w"><figcaption dir="auto">View fullsize</figcaption></figure>At some point though I realized that even if a drawing had perfect proportions, it could still be boring. And on the flipside, flawed proportions could look interesting. The reason? Again, interpretation.One way to do that is gesture. So I followed this <a href="https://youtu.be/8j39NqwL7s4" dir="ltr">gesture video</a> by Proko, applied to faces:<figure><img alt="Composite - Gesture Cropped.jpg" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1608340198185-AQVUJ0PIG0TK4V8C5BK4/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kDvDT3G7LGePTEeMPNromVh7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0jRb3i7UjwNNySrgFE_nWavYRif5Tblg1DAeW6QfvJv_b3yNd0viH1TijENpQdZYiw/Composite+-+Gesture+Cropped.jpg?format=2500w"><figcaption dir="auto">View fullsize</figcaption></figure>And I was honestly blown away by the results. Fast and loose sketches had worse proportions, yet I preferred them over my previous attempts!I then switched to shading… and it would be dishonest if I didn’t share some of my failures. So here’s a few that made me rage quit before they were completed:<figure><img alt="Composite - Failures.jpg" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1610757976984-TZP28M4JR4XQN7DBLR26/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kEpF2lptGuxDReiKcVMPbmR7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0ooWhOa5cxQSJsU3rXf8luVi8CZsBTpJO3RpsufHUTIS6zFvlOde1o12z2ix0Te8jg/Composite+-+Failures.jpg?format=2500w"></figure>Some made it further along, though in this case you see the proportions then started to suffer:<figure><img alt="IMG_0553b.PNG" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1610759883667-70KJL6HQQSRVFQ0K3K0A/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kL9E4WP9fzVptjo4-JkZHdZ7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0nrDJbiWEYx4dEDhmxOv9VV5IS5QD7O_qNo7WTAthvLsw2FT7HqhR1ZgzaMHooSOlQ/IMG_0553b.PNG?format=2500w"><figcaption dir="auto">View fullsize</figcaption></figure>I noticed that trouble usually arose when I copied reference with soft lighting (this is like a beginner skier starting on the expert slope).So instead I switched to coping reference from movies, which typically has much harder lighting.<figure><img alt="Composite - Movie Paintings.jpg" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1610758444233-0BBFBQVKAS1V2NRCEENG/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kN6qY7fmaCikMKB3Wt9HufkUqsxRUqqbr1mOJYKfIPR7LoDQ9mXPOjoJoqy81S2I8N_N4V1vUb5AoIIIbLZhVYwL8IeDg6_3B-BRuF4nNrNcQkVuAT7tdErd0wQFEGFSnOO_iBjZatnAaGMZ6SSqQJMo7gmOifz2LitHIaNfies4uEZqQwm8VrBM1SOEvl2Ktg/Composite+-+Movie+Paintings.jpg?format=2500w"></figure>After weeks of this, I started to dip my toes into color.<figure><img alt="Composite - Coloured Paintings.jpg" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1610760052854-DWWE3FCD9ZGNQPL718KD/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kJYPUDdImgwm8rsO9JJ76DR7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0o8OMvY5tuV_wqZQCqqStn49LA5Gh5CaJ1GyLP-hhjRByQy1h6Qcod4pcsynZgtH2Q/Composite+-+Coloured+Paintings.jpg?format=2500w"><figcaption dir="auto">View fullsize</figcaption></figure>I expected it to be harder, but I actually found it easier than B&amp;W because it the changing hues and saturations made it easier to see form.I was feeling confident so I switched back to referencing instagram models…<figure><img alt="Composite - Fully Shaded Models.jpg" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1610759969488-DC8572TSD193SLFBA2ID/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kA5uA2N91D5ehT2ou7sFnRt7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0lCYWGxfdB_uf1_ERfebHZ5sG9zrjnGBN97uvZBlPQ4iERUweVjEQM8R99om9_gCLQ/Composite+-+Fully+Shaded+Models.jpg?format=2500w"><figcaption dir="auto">View fullsize</figcaption></figure>It started great (because the reference had hard shadows) then ended terribly, because I tried to simplify and stylize a soft-lit reference (expert slope).I decided it was time to revisit proportions, and shading. So I went back to B&amp;W sketches. <figure><img alt="Composite - Latest Sketches.jpg" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1610748403418-KWINQQSBBUQU11XE3OBB/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kFmKdAJFcOk5fsAfzma6oat7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0ro8siOxa7KOjEXaZRk24Q56mUDAg7BAm91VGqgkLdX3NOdT9hRlG3rX4NNR3uCrgw/Composite+-+Latest+Sketches.jpg?format=2500w"></figure>In these attempts I tried to maintain good proportions, while achieving more gesture driven strokes. I didn’t always succeed, and sometimes it was a mess, but practice makes perfect.Someone on instagram suggested I do timed facial sketches. I was skeptical, since I thought this exercise was only valuable for full figure gesture sketches, but it worked just as well for faces!<figure><img alt="IMG_0999.PNG" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1610760178362-ES8WK9K420D1CLH2HVDC/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kDCJCqhsG2e4XUM_zGkqSI97gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0irE5vnzhB8i77IEMZ5bT-DNrHdBnmhux50xmhm-0GQcOQXMsOqjGaIazSy_dW-3vw/IMG_0999.PNG?format=2500w"><figcaption dir="auto">View fullsize</figcaption></figure>It doesn’t achieve the likeness of the reference, but that’s not the point. So I learned to accept that.I thought I was ready for some stylization next, so on the right you can see an attempt to turn a gesture drawing into a cartoonish, shaded result (without any care for likeness).This exercise made me realize how complicated illustration is, because you can’t outline everything or it looks awful. And you also need to vary stroke width.And the moment you add shading, it seems that everything needs shading. It was honestly a mess. I didn’t enjoy it, nor was I pleased with the final result. I’ll have to try again later.<figure><img alt="IMG_1004b.png" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1610756603261-K1T1VZ8CSF8CADRL4IRS/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kJOw0huZo_5GvRtrkEcv4_V7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QPOohDIaIeljMHgDF5CVlOqpeNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1UTzo13WZ13xiJxsDE43IPtW8k6PfdK0XB6frx3dYZGbem7cT0R_dexc_UL_zbpz6JQ/IMG_1004b.png?format=2500w"><figcaption dir="auto">View fullsize</figcaption></figure>I was feeling drained, then watched <a href="https://youtu.be/22XYoenU-0c?t=694" dir="ltr">this video by FZD</a> and realized why. Faces are really hard, and punishing when you fail at them. So I then spent a week trying to understanding simplified shading, using some hard surface objects. In this case a planar head and a fire hydrant.<figure><img alt="Composite - Shading Practice.png" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1610756966389-7WBOH1R1R5T5PF7I6V3L/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kObZ2Lo3VAS5XSNEgsQFQih7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QPOohDIaIeljMHgDF5CVlOqpeNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1UbBcjxt6zRI73r847wMVRRBf-4MEwROTFoJM4A1VYT-q3WUfc_ZsVm9Mi1E6FasEnQ/Composite+-+Shading+Practice.png?format=2500w"></figure>Next I jumped to a fully shaded face…<figure><img alt="IMG_1167.PNG" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1610760361239-4QY1JN8EWIRK1VL3N8JZ/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kOnhwX-oVsGTTva0kjFujR57gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QHyNOqBUUEtDDsRWrJLTmEKHApNdKVImL8u9eWHLIB7AdFq4lkSe6z_DRnd_PVF9jXHvH-hYVCYmZekN7__HU/IMG_1167.PNG?format=2500w"><figcaption dir="auto">View fullsize</figcaption></figure>This was another painful learning experience. The value differences across the face were so subtle that it was far too challenging. Again, this comes back to choosing the right subject of difficulty. Feminine, soft-lit faces are the expert ski slope.So I switched to some hard lit frames from movies and shows. And in this case, I did so many from Breaking Bad I put them all into one composition:<figure><img alt="IMG_1240.PNG" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1615677701419-K5BJ3JJJXD5ET9W50E08/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kPx8hYhtL2jse1HvwsK3-zF7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0src3bD5B-pWgfEmMlCNJdRn7KyV1WHTQvpmevKzz-7joCmXq7eavqYKQ3Ns0toGWg/IMG_1240.PNG?format=2500w"><figcaption dir="auto">View fullsize</figcaption></figure>Then finally it was time for some full color movie paintings!<figure><img alt="Composite - Movies Coloured 2.png" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1610760552693-NVEO27YZHD6630FIRDVZ/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kIa2DzUVszEkqMYu-ZzzKlgUqsxRUqqbr1mOJYKfIPR7LoDQ9mXPOjoJoqy81S2I8N_N4V1vUb5AoIIIbLZhVYwL8IeDg6_3B-BRuF4nNrNcQkVuAT7tdErd0wQFEGFSnOIf5dlXrnPRQmMXpliI--ghi-FFzzRSowe52ceeSLE0a3-DDTp0ZP4ygW2hpJsHDw/Composite+-+Movies+Coloured+2.png?format=2500w"><figcaption dir="auto">View fullsize</figcaption></figure>I had a lot of fun with these, because while focused on realism, I got to emphasize small differences in value, or subsurface scattering. I also discovered that the closer the subject is to the camera, the longer the painting will take because you need to add tiny hairs for it to feel complete.<figure><img alt="Composite - Movies Coloured 3.jpg" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1610760628594-HOE2B204WL0X189WLXK6/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kL41QpzrlVe6KRwdd9SmRxt7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0jAoOkRmPE63FUjiJOEKAz5eQqLOXTawWlDNor16sPB1rbAJnZhF-tEAToVFZ1xAVw/Composite+-+Movies+Coloured+3.jpg?format=2500w"><figcaption dir="auto">View fullsize</figcaption></figure>And finally, this became my most <a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/CHTldQ4jiO9/" dir="ltr">popular piece on Instagram</a>. GORLAMI.<figure><img alt="GORLAMI.png" src="https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58586fa5ebbd1a60e7d76d3e/1610760674788-9RUQNP6N1V6YQM82PQP4/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kD3i-_0accf_N5I2nSfwJy57gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0kF3CsS8UgcnUbuooXFLlGKsx3udI-cO6ZBgSCZ7mhSHJB7fr7ID7oqLe70Dufovgg/GORLAMI.png?format=2500w"><figcaption dir="auto">View fullsize</figcaption></figure>These are the main lessons I learned from this 2 years process:- Build a feedback loop. Learning happens by recognizing you made a mistake, and aiming to correct it on your next attempt. Yet because most artists think “practice makes perfect” they complete one drawing and move to the next. You need to be able to compare your drawing to something, or you won’t be able to recognize where it can improve.- Focus on one thing at a time. Yes, it’s fun to make final images. But they aren’t very good for learning, because anything could be wrong: proportions, gesture, shading, perspective, simplification, anatomy, color - or something else! That’s like listening to 5 pieces of music simultaneously. There’s just too much conflicting information. You need to remove as many elements as possible in order to see what’s truly wrong.- Interpretation drives interest. A photograph will tell you exactly how it is, but not what is important. Art is most interesting when the artist does try to tell you what is important. Like <a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/CB3edKEgH7I/" dir="ltr">simplifying detail</a>, <a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/CHqQjK3DZAJ/" dir="ltr">exaggerating form</a> or <a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/CEzm5D3BRtE/" dir="ltr">distorting selected elements</a>. But the hardest part about all this? Remembering that for the next piece.Follow me on <a href="https://www.artstation.com/andrewprice" dir="ltr">Artstation</a> and <a href="https://www.instagram.com/andrewpprice/" dir="ltr">Instagram</a>.<div dir="ltr">
 <time datetime="2021-03-13" dir="ltr">March 13, 2021</time>
 </div>

personaldevelopment

Personal Development

I had an epiphany when I realized I could create my own feedback loop with reference. Sketch once, overlay directly with reference, note the discrepancies then repeat. Like this:

I practiced this over many weeks, and gradually the core mistakes started to vanish:

A friend suggested I draw family instead. So I did a few weeks of that:

At some point though I realized that even if a drawing had perfect proportions , it could still be boring. And on the flipside, flawed proportions could look interesting. The reason? Again, interpretation.

One way to do that is gesture. So I followed this <a dir="ltr" href="https://youtu.be/8j39NqwL7s4">gesture video </a>by Proko, applied to faces:

And I was honestly blown away by the results. Fast and loose sketches had worse proportions, yet I preferred them over my previous attempts!

I then switched to shading… and it would be dishonest if I didn’t share some of my failures. So here’s a few that made me rage quit before they were completed:

Some made it further along, though in this case you see the proportions then started to suffer:

I noticed that trouble usually arose when I copied reference with soft lighting (this is like a beginner skier starting on the expert slope).

So instead I switched to coping reference from movies, which typically has much harder lighting.

After weeks of this, I started to dip my toes into color.

I expected it to be harder, but I actually found it easier than B&amp;W because it the changing hues and saturations made it easier to see form.

I was feeling confident so I switched back to referencing instagram models…

It started great (because the reference had hard shadows) then ended terribly, because I tried to simplify and stylize a soft-lit reference (expert slope).

I decided it was time to revisit proportions, and shading. So I went back to B&amp;W sketches.

In these attempts I tried to maintain good proportions, while achieving more gesture driven strokes. I didn’t always succeed, and sometimes it was a mess, but practice makes perfect.

Someone on instagram suggested I do timed facial sketches. I was skeptical, since I thought this exercise was only valuable for full figure gesture sketches, but it worked just as well for faces!

It doesn’t achieve the likeness of the reference, but that’s not the point. So I learned to accept that.

I thought I was ready for some stylization next, so on the right you can see an attempt to turn a gesture drawing into a cartoonish, shaded result (without any care for likeness).

This exercise made me realize how complicated illustration is, because you can’t outline everything or it looks awful. And you also need to vary stroke width.

And the moment you add shading, it seems that everything needs shading.

It was honestly a mess. I didn’t enjoy it, nor was I pleased with the final result. I’ll have to try again later.

I was feeling drained, then watched <a dir="ltr" href="https://youtu.be/22XYoenU-0c?t=694">this video by FZD </a>and realized why. Faces are really hard, and punishing when you fail at them.

So I then spent a week trying to understanding simplified shading, using some hard surface objects. In this case a planar head and a fire hydrant.

Next I jumped to a fully shaded face…

This was another painful learning experience. The value differences across the face were so subtle that it was far too challenging.

Again, this comes back to choosing the right subject of difficulty. Feminine, soft-lit faces are the expert ski slope.

So I switched to some hard lit frames from movies and shows. And in this case, I did so many from Breaking Bad I put them all into one composition:

Then finally it was time for some full color movie paintings!

I had a lot of fun with these, because while focused on realism, I got to emphasize small differences in value, or subsurface scattering.

I also discovered that the closer the subject is to the camera, the longer the painting will take because you need to add tiny hairs for it to feel complete.

And finally, this became my most <a dir="ltr" href="https://www.instagram.com/p/CHTldQ4jiO9/">popular piece on Instagram </a>. GORLAMI.

These are the main lessons I learned from this 2 years process:

- Build a feedback loop. Learning happens by recognizing you made a mistake, and aiming to correct it on your next attempt. Yet because most artists think “practice makes perfect” they complete one drawing and move to the next. You need to be able to compare your drawing to something, or you won’t be able to recognize where it can improve.

- Focus on one thing at a time. Yes, it’s fun to make final images. But they aren’t very good for learning, because anything could be wrong: proportions, gesture, shading, perspective, simplification, anatomy, color - or something else! That’s like listening to 5 pieces of music simultaneously. There’s just too much conflicting information. You need to remove as many elements as possible in order to see what’s truly wrong.

- Interpretation drives interest. A photograph will tell you exactly how it is, but not what is important. Art is most interesting when the artist does try to tell you what is important. Like <a dir="ltr" href="https://www.instagram.com/p/CB3edKEgH7I/">simplifying detail </a>, <a dir="ltr" href="https://www.instagram.com/p/CHqQjK3DZAJ/">exaggerating form </a>or <a dir="ltr" href="https://www.instagram.com/p/CEzm5D3BRtE/">distorting selected elements </a>.

But the hardest part about all this? Remembering that for the next piece.

Follow me on <a dir="ltr" href="https://www.artstation.com/andrewprice">Artstation </a>and <a dir="ltr" href="https://www.instagram.com/andrewpprice/">Instagram </a>.

I drew everyday for 2 years. Here's what I learned. — Blender Guru

Build a feedback loop

Focus on one thing at a time

Interpretation drives interest

Liam Owen's ideas are part of this journey:

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